Talk:Dagger Trials
is the damage for your renegade final upgrade a typo: Damage:18 Delay:190 "DMG:+31 Delay+21 Occ. atk. twice" ? If not thats incredibly impressive. Also would like to point out the stats for the fully upgraded Dakini through trial 32 (results Damage:25(total 34) Delay:195(total 190) "DMG:+9 Delay-5 Dex+4 Accuracy+8") produce a base dps of 10.7, easily out dps'ing any dagger for DNC without factoring in crazy latent effects. And if you do factor them in, it still out dps's everything except mighty knife. I rocky 18:20, March 23, 2010 (UTC) Apparently it was fixed, reads +13 now. --Modoru 00:37, March 24, 2010 (UTC) Just to make sure: can you have the weapon you're doing the trial for equipped on your off-hand? Or does it have to be main-handed? --Kyrie 05:43, March 24, 2010 (UTC) :Answering my own question: you can off-hand it. --Kyrie 08:18, March 24, 2010 (UTC) Added my screenshots finally, as well as some minor editing tweaks. Will continue with more Trials info in a few! --Jhubsch 17:58, March 24, 2010 (UTC) Can anyone tell how often the additional effects such as weakened attack and impaired evasion kick in? --GarudasWing 05:58, March 25, 2010 (UTC) * Triggers about 5% of the time, but I think level difference also plays a role. --Seedling 10:43, June 3, 2010 (UTC) * I parsed my impaired evasion Dakini at 15% base activation rate on EP leeches in Bostaunieux Oubliette during Trial 1107 (which isn't currently shown on the main page - it's the final trial after the June 2010 update). Actual proc rate will probably vary according to mob level, resistance, element and whatever other factors SE has thrown in. It also may have been silently upgraded during the trial progression, so earlier versions may not be the same. Finally, this was the base rate. The real world rate will be modified down by all of the hits you make when the effect is already active - ie. you can't activate the effect when it's already active. Similarly, in a group when others are using weapons of the same type such as the Thalassocrat, your dagger will not activate when the other weapon's effect is active. So these are my results solo, on those mobs. --Gnaal 14:32, June 26, 2010 (UTC) mixing trials I was doing Trial 10 and Trial 32 at the same time in Ro'Maeve and noticed that I was getting credit for both trials off killing Weapons (Arcana Family). This is unusual because it was not thunderday or thunder weather which Trial 32 is supposed to require. Perhaps Trial 10 (main hand) influenced Trial 32 (sub weapon). Has anyone else combined trials on different weapons and had an unusual result? --Orkinjon 11:47, March 31, 2010 I've had a similar experience, twice actually. It didn't seem to matter which was main or sub, but it seemed that whenever one weapon needed deaths on a day/weather, but didn't specify mob type, using that weapon would end up getting you credit for both. Did it on two separate occasions, which was a blessing seeing as Fire weather is rare at best. --Yemian 19:38, April 11, 2010 (UTC) I received credit for killing crabs on windsday without any weather for trial 24 and 17 today. I am curious if you can use a dagger like say Trial 30 (Any mob - Thunder day/weather) in conjunction with Trial 25 (Vermin - Wind day/weather) to let you kill vermin on Windsday and Thundersday? --Orkinjon 21:47, April 11, 2010 Here are the results of a few tests I performed: Trial 24 + Trial 17 vs. Crabs on Windsday w/o weather = Credit for both Trial 10 + Trial 32 vs. Arcana on various days w/o weather = Credit for both Trial 30 + Trial 25 vs. Vermin on Windsday w/o weather = Credit for both Trial 30 + Trial 25 vs. Vermin on Thunderday w/o weather = Credit for Trial 30 Only Trial 17 + Trial 25 vs. Vermin on Windsday w/o weather = Credit for Trial 25 Only Trial 30 + Trial 25 vs. Quadav on Windsday w/o weather = No Credit Trial 30 + Trial 25 vs. Crabs on Lightday w/ Thunder weather = Credit for Trial 30 Only Trial 30 + Trial 24 vs. Crabs on Darksday w/ Thunder weather = Credit for both --Orkinjon 09:12, April 13, 2010 If what you guys said is true, it was probably a bug and they fixed it, because it definitely didn't happen to me. About 2 weeks ago, I did Trial 10 (400 arcana) and trial 32 (100 arcana with tunder day/weather), I was wielding both daggers full time, hoping that there would be some thunder weather, and after a couple of hours I finished my 400 arcana before finishing my 100 thunder arcana. I only got Thunder arcana kills during lightningsday and near the end when thunder weather finally decided to show up and give me my final kills. The trials worked as they were supposed to work for me. Soily 22:45, July 5, 2010 (UTC) reformatting So I pushed all the information about each trial into the chart, hopefully everyone thinks it looks good! Jhubsch, keep adding screenshots, but I think we only really have room for the "final upgrades" so just worry about those ^^ --Malizia 21:54, March 24, 2010 (UTC) Re-added the list section, as the chart is very hard to understand, and this coming from someone that's been looking at each and every trial, description, and result of each! Some of the results prior to the final result may be more desirable than the final result so readers may benefit from knowing the whole path's results. Besides, we have plenty room! If there is a suggestion of re-formatting to make it easier to navigate, I'm open to that and have considered adding a tree linked menu as well, once complete. Anyways, almost done - will add more screenshots soon! --Jhubsch 22:24, March 24, 2010 (UTC) ok, fine with me :) i purposely left the list-removal edit as last in case someone felt like it should have been there. I'll update the chart with your changes to the list! --Malizia 23:50, March 24, 2010 (UTC) don't know who ended up doing all the formatting, but the current layout is the best of any of the trial pages i've seen. major thanks to whoever did all of it. --Yjhuoh 10:27, March 31, 2010 (UTC) Branch Formatting I was looking at the branch formatting and it really isn't uniform when it comes to the first few upgrades. Base weapons are the relic/mythics and Peeler. I understand that it may be easier just to list the first trial choice with the Peeler, but it's slightly inaccurate. The first branch is actually when you choose trial 2 or 16 for Peeler. Shouldn't the first box have just Peeler and the relic/mythic weapons? Branch 1 for trial 2 or 16 for peeler, with nocuous weapon on branch 1, trial 2; the other requirements for trial 16. Then Branch 2 (the box listed as branch 1 right now) should list Renegade (since you've upgraded to a new weapon) and the Black Triple Stars and Serra trials as the shared Branch 2? Then shift everything over 1? I'm at work so I made a shitty paint picture to kinda illustrate the idea. You would have to add a column "Base Weapon" - or insert one between base weapon and trial 1 and shift them all over but if not, just do what's in the picture. Sorry if it doesn't make much sense. Phoenixtail 17:38, April 14, 2010 (UTC) I suppose the "Base Weapon" heading for the chart is a misnomer. A more accurate listing for each column would be "Branch 1", "Branch 2", "Branch 3", and "Branch 4" instead. However, that's not really what you're getting at. The objective of the chart is to list all the trial information in as clear and concise a method as possible. I certainly don't think we should add a new column, because all that would be in it would be the Peeler Trial 2 and the Peeler Trial 16, and that's just a huge waste of space. You *could* shift the data over one column as you suggested, since we're not using column 3 right now, but here are the problems I see with that: * It leaves a lot of empty space in the cells containing "Peeler Trial 2" and "Renegade Trial 3, 4". It looks bad to me, but it might not to you. * It suggests an additional branch when there isn't. When you start Trial 2, you don't branch until you finish Trial 4 and have to choose between 5 and 10. I know we actually have this problem later on with Trials 5-9, but they're split up so the cell isn't abnormally tall. There was no issue with the cell getting too tall with trial 2-4, so I saw no reason to split them up. * It's different than all the other trial pages. For some of the pages, like Archery Trials, Marksmanship Trials, and Staff Trials, this section only has four columns (three branches and a picture) instead of five, so this format is necessary. I certainly don't think we should add columns there, so I don't think it's necessary to change the format here. --Malizia 18:22, April 14, 2010 (UTC) New formatting Still a work in progress, but I believe this is clearer then the current page. The new progression tree gives a quick overlook of the path to take. Perhaps add trial conditions as well, although then the whole thing becomes a lot busier. The old trial list is a pain to navigate right now, so that could use a fresh lick of paint as well. Unaugmented weapons Progression tree Trial list I disagree that this formatting is clearer than the existing table. I find the existing table to be easier to read because it isn't so heavily color coded, and each trial succinctly includes the conditions to complete it. It manages to include in a single table the information (except for intermediate weapon stats) that it takes two of your tables to provide. I don't find the existing table cluttered, but that second table you propose feels very cluttered to me. Of course, I was the one who put much of the existing table together, so I am biased :) However, I never found the old trial list to be useful, and I know this formatting you're suggesting is used on many other pages, so here's what I suggest if you want to change the Dagger Trials page: * Please keep the existing table up. I use it all the time, and I know I'm not the only one who finds it easy to navigate. If you do remove it, rest assured I will put it back! * I didn't touch the old trial list because someone else was editing it at the time. That person seems to have lost interest in finishing it, so you can probably remove it and replace it with your chart. If you don't want to remove the list, put your chart above the list. Thanks! --Malizia 18:56, May 27, 2010 (UTC) Uniform style I'm trying to create a uniform style for all trial pages, so any discussions are welcome. What about the below example? All trial paths resulting in a particular weapon/branch are grouped together. The trade icon indicates trades rather then kills. I ditched the color scheme, since the weather/day icons will be used instead. The list of trials could indeed be removed if the progression tree itself contains all the information, leaving but the single table. (didn't add Dakini trials yet) --Seedling 13:42, May 28, 2010 (UTC) OK, this looks awfully similar to the existing table, which means I like it :) Some improvements you made that I think could be added to all the existing tables: * the trade icon is nice. * the non-white cell border adds a little definition and clears up the borders between paths. * I'm ok with the left-aligned text with this example. I don't think it would work so well with the Dakini trials though, since there is more text there than the width of the cell. * The horizontal line is a nice touch, but again, the Dakini trials might not turn out as well. Things the existing table has that I preferred: * Trials in bold. * No space between the colon and the trial number; the colon is also bold. * The center spacing looks good for the dakini trials. * This formatting exists on multiple pages already. So this begs the question, why change the existing table if your new table is so close in design? Why do you need to edit this table's formatting? What do you think is wrong with it? I agree that a standard layout for all the pages would be great, but multiple people put a lot of work into the different layouts - why can't we just have multiple layouts up? --Malizia 17:54, May 28, 2010 (UTC) One of the problems I have with the current layout is that it's not consistent throughout. For instance, Trial 2 Peeler > Renegade happens in a single cell, Trial 5 Renegade > Kartika is a different 'branch', yet Renegade > Athame is not. For instance, compare below two tables. Original: Expected: The table I suggested earlier lists all trials by their resulting weapon. (I added Peeler as well, but tbh there's no trial that results in that since you just pick it out of a box. Maybe should just remove it.) Probably should keep the trial list around as well, since it lists the stats on each weapon after intermediate trials. As for different layouts for different pages... since every page shows the same information with slightly different names and stats, it makes sense to use a uniform format. The work that people did on the page is not lost, it's merely redesigned. --Seedling 14:30, June 1, 2010 (UTC) row height design So you hit on a major design consideration I had when making these tables: they can get very tall. The taller they get, the harder they are to read (see Staff Trials for an extreme example). Because of this, I made a design rule: each branch should be no taller than the picture at the end. This is why there's that inconsistency in that first row. If you do the "expected" layout, the row is much taller than every other row in the table, and it looks bad. By separating the trials out into different cells, you can maintain the uniform height of each row, without (supposedly) losing readability since you still read left-to-right. You obviously don't agree with the readability assessment. I consider the weapon naming the part of the existing table most in need of work. Your example #2 (with the horizontal bar and the weapon names in bold) is better than what is there now. Maybe we can just get rid of the weapon names entirely (ok, probably not). But currently, they add extra data of dubious value, and it's not quite apparent what they mean - do you need that weapon to start the trial, or do you get that weapon when you finish the trial? A uniform format is a good thing, but remember there are many people like me who take "ownership" in their specific table. Start removing tables and people will be upset. Also remember that in a few weeks we're going to have even more trials, and it's likely (almost guaranteed for relics) that these weapon tables will need expansion. So, to sum up: * the "expected" layout is bad because the height of the row is no longer the same as every other row in the table. * weapon names can be confusing right now. * forcing a uniform layout, or making major layout changes, is dangerous because it can cause edit wars. * surely you must have more criticisms of the existing table than that. A problem with one row isn't enough to think up a redesign. Why do you think the table is unclear? * I'd like examples of new formatting to include the elemental trials as well, since they're a major part of the table. How would your example #2 work with the elemental trials? --Malizia 19:12, June 1, 2010 (UTC) Staff trials are 'tall' because there's 6(7 for light) final trials for each element versus two or three for the other weapons. Rowheights are not consistent regardless of what you want. Compare Mantis to Kenkonken on Hand-to-Hand Trials for instance. Cosmetic changes should not affect clarity of the information. Rather then breaking the branching layout, split the trials in a seperate table within the cell and use the empty space provided by colspan="3", for instance. Personally I don't care about some whitespace above and below an image, even the existing table still has whitespace around images (see Kartika and half the Dakini trials.) Uniform layouts are the basis of a wiki. If the new layout is clear and works for all pages, there's no reason for an edit war purely for cosmetic reasons. An admin like Charitwo will vote in favor of a consistent readable layout over a cosmetic correct one. My biggest concerns are: * Consistancy between all trial pages. * Weird branching. Readers should not need a manual to recognise fake branching for cosmetic reasons. Here's the full proposed table. I made a small change to the weapon names. I think it looks better, and it reduces row height to fit images better. --Seedling 09:29, June 2, 2010 (UTC) Seedling, that is fantastic. I like how you put the weapon as its own heading so a) you don't need to keep repeating it in multiple cells and b) it keeps the table compact. The row height works fine with this table, and it's quite clear what's going on to me. I can only suggest a couple changes: * add a width="100%" tag to the table properties so it expands to fill the page. On wide monitors, this will create more horizontal space for easier reading. * I don't see why there needs to be a space between the trial number and the colon. It's not like that in regular English text, why should it be like that here? Otherwise, have fun updating all the trial pages! :) Let me know if you want help. --Malizia 20:58, June 2, 2010 (UTC) Added your suggestions. The colon thing is an occupational hazard :) (I'm a software engineer, so I tend to write things like "x := 1" or "y = 3".) I'm going to double-check the trials for copy-paste errors, then I'll move it over to the article page today or tomorrow. --Seedling 10:39, June 3, 2010 (UTC) FYI - as soon as I find the saved text file with the formatting for the Trials that I had built here, that is now altogether erased, I plan to put it back up, and will continue if it keeps getting erased.--Jhubsch 10:39, June 15, 2010 (UTC) Was wondering why there's 2 sets of trial list on the page? don't want to remove if it's there for a reason--Ashera 02:41, July 7, 2010 (UTC) FYI - I and another completed Trial 3 on Renegade only having killed Triple Black Stars twice. Possible change since update? Please verify... --Everynevers 8/9/10 Added the Kila +1 AGI+8 Evasion +18 picture, tho I just realized the picture itself needs renaming to the trial. --RingmastersWord 21:28, September 10, 2010 (UTC)